TRIGGER WARNING: Some triggers in this podcast may include racism,
racial profiling, immigration detention centers, Black Lives
Matter and police brutality.
ANGELA: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Latinas Rebeldes. My name is
Angela. I’m 19 years old. My mom was raised here, my family is
from Yucatán. I was raised in La Puente and I went to school in
Walnut.Now, I’m a full time student at California State
University, Long Beach, studying criminology and criminal
justice. And this is my co-host, Belle.
ANABEL: Hi, everyone. My name is Anabel. Little
background about myself. I was born in Mexico, but immigrated to
the United States when I was a baby. I was raised in Los Angeles.
A pretty typical childhood, but I didn’t really know I was an
immigrant until I needed a Social Security, and that really
changed my life. But fortunately, after President Obama created
the DACA program, I had the opportunity to travel. And long story
short, I was able to get my green card. So by day, I am a
technical project manager working on mobile apps. But my real
passion and why I’m here today is because I am a huge advocate
for immigrant rights.
ANGELA: Alright. So let’s start by explaining why
we’re here. We’re going to basically do some evidence analyzing
and try to look into two interviews that were done by me and a
few articles done by the L.A. Times, Washington Post, NPR, et
cetera, focused on racial profiling. So main question that we’re
trying to answer today at the end of this podcast, we’re going to
try to explain is should Latinos remain worried around law
enforcement officials even when they are not breaking the law?
Alright. So let’s get started. So let’s slide into Gustavo’s
column. So Gustavo Arellano is a columnist for the Los Angeles
Times and his article basically talks about Latino shootings in
Los Angeles. How the effect of them, what’s it doing in the
community and what our reaction as the Latino community is doing.
So one of the main things that we want to bring up is that he
talks about Latinos being passive, Latinos not doing anything for
advocacy to bring to the attention of the community what’s really
going on. Anabel, I know you had some comments on that, how you
don’t think that’s correct, that we’re not protesting?
ANABEL: Yeah, I think just depending on my upbringing
and my personal experience, as I mentioned, you know, I’m an
advocate for immigrant rights because the minute you know about
your status, you understand how unlucky you are, you know, just
for wanting to get a better opportunity. But when I found out I
was an immigrant, I was lucky enough to have friends in the
community that knew about organizations that either protested or
fought for immigrant rights and for labor laws. And so growing
up, I was always pretty active in that community and always
protesting. And so, you know, even though we say that there’s not
a lot of support, there are groups out there. But maybe it just
hasn’t been as prominent as what we’ve seen lately with the Black
Lives Matter movement.
ANGELA: You’re right. I mean, even at a young age,
Arellano (2021) explains that there’s such a black and white
paradigm in Los Angeles that we’re not really seeing the other
minorities are being affected by all these police brutality and
racial profiling incidents that are happening. Some of the names
that Arellano (2021) addresses are: Andres Guardado, who was shot
five times last June, Sean Monterrosa shot two weeks before what
Guardado. Manuel Diaz, who was shot by an Anaheim police officer
in 2012. These are things that you don’t hear a lot in the news.
And the question is why? Why aren’t we out protesting what’s
going on? And I think that’s what I personally Arellano’s entire
column is about. Is that what we’re doing? Because even at the
end of his article, he he asked us, like, are we just waiting for
George Floyd? And I think that’s a question that kind of leaves
you hanging, thinking like, well, yeah, what are we doing? What
are we doing wrong?
ANABEL: And more importantly, what what more can we
do? Because obviously a lot of the families for these victims,
you know, they have been protesting or they had been wanting
awareness, but where do we go from here? What as a community can
we do to really get justice for these people?
ANGELA: Definitely. And actually, I was able to talk
to Joseph Valadez, who actually is CSULB alumnus. And he’s
amazing. He was a great guy. I mean, this phone call interview
was like an hour and a half. I wish I could have put everything
into it. He discusses a little bit more of racial profiling,
especially because he was in and out of the prison system for a
large portion of his life, so why don’t we take a listen to it
and we discuss it afterward?
JOSEPH: At an early age I started getting busted. 11
years old was the first time. And after that, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15,
16, 17, 18. I got I was arrested for many different things.
Everything that I did is no reflection of my parents. Right. I
always knew the difference between right and wrong. And nobody
put a gun to my head or nobody to smile to do the things that I
did. I can’t see out of screwed up childhood because I didn’t.
That my parents beat the shit out of me or did this. Well, they
beat me but everybody got beat.
I was always racially profiled. And even in Orange County.
Everywhere in Orange County. We would go to the beach and we made
it a point to do what we’re doing. And not have nothing on the
fucking car. Not even any beer. We’re just going down the beach
and kick it. We would meet up with somebody that was bringing
beer, you know? Well, they were supposed to be already there.
We got pulled over going to the beach. And the cop even told us
after seeing all of our addresses, “You guys got no business over
here.” We told him we can’t just go enjoy the beach? “You know,
you guys have no business. Take your asses back to your
neighborhood and don’t come back here. You’re not welcome. If I
see you guys again, I’m going to take you guys to jail”. For
what? We ain’t doing nothing. This was after he had us sitting on
the curb for whatever amount of time, going through the car, not
finding fucking nothing. And he made sure all the lights were
working. We made sure that we beat it because that’s what they
would do. If you had a turn signal that was out, if a light build
was out, that gave them the fucking right. Even in the ‘60s, we
always knew to make sure to take the fucking rosary off the
fucking rearview mirror. Don’t have nothing because that would
give them probable cause to pull you over. And I have had
homeboys who got pulled over for having a rosary over it.
You know, and I know that’s cheeky shit because that was the
excuse for them to pull you over. Do I have any attitudes about
it? Yeah, I still believe that they profile. Fuck yeah, they
still profile. You can’t convince me otherwise. Now, they say not
all cops are bad. Bullshit. Let me tell you, if you’re fucking
covering up and you know one of them fuckers are fucking up, in
my eyes you’re just as guilty as they are because you have
haven’t said nothing and you’re in a better position to expose
that shit. So no. Not all cops are bad? No. They know, they know
their partners are fucking up, they’re just as guilty. I’m sorry,
but that’s just my view that on that.
ANGELA: Any thoughts?
ANABEL: Yeah, I mean, I can really hear the passion in
his voice. You know, he’s so frustrated because, you know, he
said that he was he was just it’s a cry out for help. A lot of
times, you know, when you’re kind of getting profiled and you’re
getting looked a certain way, you look out for your community.
And so I think what I’m hearing from a lot is that he it sounds
like you kind of wish that there was support. You know, obviously
you can get lawyers, but a lot of people are either in low income
communities or immigrant communities and the law and lawyers,
it’s just not accessible to them. And just anything relating to
the law directly ties into their status. And so, you know, for
me, growing up, like we never really wanted to talk to a lawyer
because, you know, it could lead to questions. And so I growing
up, especially for me, the notion of assimilating, of knowing
your place, of being quiet and not speaking up. And so a lot of
us have grown up with that feeling. We can’t really go out there
and protest and stand for your rights because you really
shouldn’t or else you can really get deported and your family can
get affected by it.
ANGELA: And, you know, adding onto that Arellano
(2021), referencing back to his black and white paradigm, a lot
of them, a lot of people, Latinos especially, who don’t go out
and protest. It has to do a lot with the Black Lives Matter
movement. I mean, you know, you don’t want to kind of, you know,
per-say take the spotlight away. And I think that was such a huge
issue during the BLM movement in 2020. Because, you know, Latino
activists don’t want to be like, hey, what about us? And kind of
take that respect away from BLM, because I mean, not to say it’s
not happening to all minorities because it is. But we just we we
don’t want to take away their spotlight. And I think that was
another issue that’s going on. How do we share the spotlight
without kind of making one minority superior to the others?
Gamboa (2019), interviewed Van Cleve from Chicago. And his family
are all from the Mexican border town of Mission, Texas, so he
talks about his racial profiling experience in the interview. But
something I really wanted to point out from this article is that
Van Cleve said when he was asked for his documents a lot of the
time was because he had dark skin, even though he was born in the
U.S., they would always confront him. And he said it’s because “I
just look illegal”. What do you have to say about that, Belle?
ANABEL: Yeah, I mean, that word is I don’t like that
word because you know, that I growing up, I remember we
immigrants were referred to as literally in official documents as
aliens or illegal aliens. And that in itself just means that you
as a person, you know, is wrong. You don’t belong. You shouldn’t
be here. But what is interesting about the way he said it is that
he knew off the bat that just because he was dark skinned, not
necessarily Latino, not necessarily, you know, from a Mexican
town, but the fact that he was dark skinned, he was profiled. And
that reminds me of an incident actually that happened to my
husband where we were we were driving. He has his license. And
just for context, my husband is half Black and half Indian, but
he has an ambiguous look. But, you know, going back to a story,
we were in a car with my brothers, going to a soccer game when he
was stopped and pulled over by a police officer and when as soon
as he rolled his window down, the police officer said, SIR, DO
YOU SPEAK SPANISH? CAN YOU UNDERSTAND ME? And we just all looked
like shocked, like, why is he talking to him that way? And my
husband, who obviously is U.S. born, knows English very well,
said, yes, I understand you. And he said, OK, well, do you have a
license? And just off the back, just my husband is somewhat dark
skinned, but he just assumed because it was a soccer game that he
was maybe undocumented and look Latino because he was with me and
he obviously showed him his I.D. and then everything was fine.
He’s like, oh, I just want to you know, he completely changed his
his way of talking to him and said, oh, I just want to make sure
you understood the traffic laws and you weren’t violating any.
Well, have a great day. And he just walked away. But, you know,
just that that was obviously in a perfect example of racial
profiling. The officer thought he was Latino because he was in a
car with other Latinos and it was a soccer game. But just the way
he spoke down to him in the beginning and then completely changed
his demeanor once he found out he had a license and he indeed
spoke English, just really shows how there’s a lot of times where
the way you look, you are automatically assumed to be an
immigrant, of not being able to speak Spanish, and just very
aggressive, sort of talking down to people who, you know, might
have might have been a mistake. Maybe he did a wrong turn. But
that’s really what it brings me back to, is a lot of people start
having these experiences that almost become real and you start
thinking, am I really, do I belong here? Like, you really start
to second guess your validity as a human. And, you know, it’s
it’s really traumatic for a lot of the immigrant community.
ANGELA: Definitely, you know, and this exact idea of,
“illegals:, it reminds me of Silva (2019) article about the
Marine they wanted to deport. They kept him in an ICE detention
center for three days. What’s interesting is that during, you
know, process, when they put him in the detention center, they
actually found the passport and they put it in the evidence
locker. So they knew he was a U.S. citizen. But during the
investigation or after the investigation, when the officer was
asked, the ICE officer responded, oh, well, I’m not too sure it
was from the U.S. I don’t think it was a U.S. passport and things
like that, like, OK, that’s fine. But, you know, my partner’s in
the military. So I know very well that when you run their name,
it says, like, this person is in the Marines or this person is in
the Army, it’s going to say something because it’s your
government property. So you shouldn’t be traveling from side to
side without some kind of consent. So to be told that we didn’t
know he was a U.S. citizen, this man is in the military. He’s
suffering from PTSD. And the only evidence they had was that
obviously his Latino name and the way he looked, you know, how
traumatizing this could be? And it took three days to get him
out. That’s what’s crazy. And it took three days.
ANABEL: Wow, that sounds so scary. And, yeah, it just
ties back to this notion of dark skinned and the racial profiling
of you look a certain way. Your skin is a certain shade. And
despite these this person’s credentials of being and in the
military and having a disability, a mental health disability,
despite all that, his own people, in essence, were targeting him.
And it’s just it’s really sad because you would think it goes
back to this notion of the dimension of assimilating that you
think if you learn the language, if you go to school, if you
follow all the rules, then you’ve made it, right? You made it the
American dream. You should earn some respect. And even with this
guy being in the military, I mean, he’s active duty. I mean, that
is the highest honor that we really all kind of pride to be in
this country.
Even in that he was detained, he was denied his
rights. Who is undocumented or not? Everyone has a right to a
lawyer and to to show documentation, which he literally had on
his back. I mean, honestly, who walks around with a passport?
Maybe he needed to. But again, even with all of that, none of it
mattered because he had a Latino name and he was dark skinned.
And unfortunately, he was detained for three days, which I’m sure
is very traumatic.
ANGELA: And a lot of it brings back to colorism, you
know how because he’s so dark, although he can’t be he can’t be a
legal citizen. Obviously, there’s something wrong with it. And
that’s what raises the question a lot of the times, like in the
streets, when these officers are racially profiling a lot of
these young men or even adult men, they just see the color of the
skin. And speaking to colorism, it take us to Wigglesworth (2020)
years article about the quote unquote child abduction. It was
basically a grandpa, dark skinned grandpa Latino in Torrance. And
he had this blue eyed, blonde, curly hair, white grandson and his
neighbor, who was also white, decided to call for help, call 911
because somebody had abducted a white child. Keep in mind, this
same lady actually had a samurai sword and she was like
threatening the grandpa because, you know, he was stealing a
child. So when officers arrived they find out he’s the grandpa,
they get confirmation from the parents. you know, and it turns
out they just kind of leave.
Mata, who was the grandpa, actually
calls back at the station and ask, hey, what happened with my
neighbor who was threatening me with the sword? They come to say,
oh, well, she didn’t do anything wrong because she stood on her
property. So you’re telling me a grandpa who was enjoying a nice
little walk with his grandson was more of a threat than a lady, a
white lady who was out in public, maybe she was on her property,
with a samurai sword? I mean, I don’t know about you, but I’d be
very scared if I had even without a child, just me, myself. I saw
somebody yelling at me, telling me that I adopted someone with a samurai sword. I’d be scared for my life, especially because of
the color of my skin.
ANABEL: Absolutely. And if I mean, obviously, if the
tables were turned in that scenario, if there was a white
grandfather with his kid, with his grandson and there was a
person of color in their own property with even a sword, which is
how I don’t even get that honestly, referencing a lot of cases,
that person wouldn’t be alive. If you’re a person of color by
default, you’re more threatening. And if you have a weapon,
you’re very likely not going to get out of that situation alive.
And so it’s really sad to see these cases when it just, how did
it go from a grandfather walking in his neighborhood with his
son, which in the article they mentioned he did this every
weekend. You know, he would he was a child care for the
grandson’s parents. How does it go from that to almost getting
arrested and probably a traumatic experience for that little boy,
which, you know, he doesn’t have a voice in this. He can’t say
what happened to him.
Yeah, honestly, when I saw that article,
there was a visual, a picture of the grandfather and the little
boy. And as soon as I saw that, I couldn’t help but think of my
own father, who is, you know, dark skinned. He’s from Veracruz.
And he actually looks very closely to my brother and my son, who
are both pretty fair skinned. But in that picture, I just
automatically just thought of my dad and my son. And had they
been in that situation where my dad was walking my son are there
like, should I be scared that there are neighbors out there who
are just assuming this because they’re so uncomfortable with a
brown man holding a white child?
ANGELA: Yeah, definitely. And you bring up a really
good point about Latinos not making out of certain situations
alive. And I like how you use the samurai sword example. It
brings me back to our original prompt, should Latinos be worried
around law enforcement if they’re not breaking the law? Because,
you know, in the scenario they said, well, the lady wasn’t
breaking the law because she was on her own property. She had a
samurai sword. Right. So you’re telling me of a Latino was on his
own property and he had a sword would it be breaking the law?
Should they be scared? Because I’m sure, like from my opinion and
everything we’ve gathered so far, I feel like if there was a
Latino, even if it was on his own property, they’d probably be
like, oh, well, this isn’t your property. They assume that it’s
not their property or they would just, well because the color of
their skin, he’s a threat to society, whatever they want to call
it. And of course, like you say, they don’t make it alive. So
personally, I’m just thinking about that. I don’t I don’t think,
like I said, I would be completely comfortable. But anyway, I
don’t know what you think about that.
ANABEL: Yeah, no, absolutely not. I mean, we’ve seen
so many cases where just like, you know, existing, you’re either
profiled by your neighbor, by police or you’re actually verbally
harassed, which, you know, brings me to a personal story of mine.
And like I mentioned, you know, seeing this picture of the
grandfather and the son, obviously as a as a community, Latinos
are it’s a wide range of languages. And how we look and I as I
mentioned, my grandfather’s is dark skinned and my own son and my
brother is fair skinned. And there there was an instance when I
was very little and my little brother, who looked just like that
little boy in that article, he was very white, almost like
blondish hair. But obviously, you know, like a Latino, you know,
I was in the car with my mom and my little brother, and he was
about three years old. And and as some parents may know, your
potty training children around that age. So my little brother
really had to use the restroom and we couldn’t find a bathroom.
So we pulled over and my mom was scrambling to find a water
bottle for him to be into, which a lot of parents that we have
been in that situation, but he just couldn’t hold it. And so my
mom grabbed him and just said, try to hold it.
And so He couldn’t. So he just started peeing on the side of the road while
she kept looking for a bottle. And as this happened, a guy, a
white guy passed by and saw it and just immediately stopped,
turned around and said, what the F are you doing? This isn’t what
we do in this country. That’s disgusting. And it was it happened
so long ago. I was maybe 12 years old. But to this day, I
physically, like, remember how scared and angry I was at how he
was talking to my mom. And my brother probably didn’t remember
it. But I mean, in the moment, it was so tense. And like I said,
this guy just verbally abused us. And I just don’t I’m trying to
think if in that situation, had it been a white family, if it
would have been the same, I mean, not to say that was OK, but
when you’re potty training a child, it is very hard to control
them and they can’t control their bladder. So obviously not an
ideal situation. But why, as Latinos, do we have to be afraid to
just go through life, these life moments without actually getting
verbally abused by people? And this happened to us to this day. I
remember it. And and again, the language that he use is very
common of we don’t do this, go back to your country. And so it’s
just this this language of I’m better than you, why you don’t
belong here, what you’re doing is wrong. And so you grow up with
those feelings around you. And when you’re someone says that
about you, just it’s very traumatizing and scary.
ANGELA: I’m definitely sorry that happened to you. Why
don’t we kind of expand on that? You know, you mentioned you’re
so scared, especially from that experience. Your mom was scared.
You were scared. You know, I believe that a lot of Latinos across
Los Angeles are scared. And a lot of it has to do with,
obviously, social media, what we see, what we witness. But I also
wanted to kind of touch base on some statistics.
So Foster-Frau (2021), made an article about Latinos being
disproportionately killed by police. And just to give some
clarity, each race that was looked into was black, Latinos,
whites, and in very, very small are all others.
But the three mains were Black, Latinos, and Whites. So Whites, 2.3 two per
million are being examined and 2,890 killed. Latinos, 4.2 per
million, 1, 059 were killed and Blacks 5.7 per million, 1, 512
killed since 2015. So I know obviously like the whites sound a
lot. I mean, it’s a big number, 2,890, but you have to think that
it’s only 2.3 million that are being examined compared to 4.2.
That is a 1,059. So I’m sure if we were to do 2.3 across all
three races, you would see the actual difference in number,
because obviously the smaller the number, the greater the amount
of people killed. And for, you know, the black people who were
killed, it was since 2015. So it’s not just in a year. Latinos
and whites were killed in 2019, but the 1,512 twelve African Americans were killed since 2015. So that number is constantly
growing. And you know, Latinos, I mean, we’re so scared. You
know, we already have immigration issues to deal with. We have
BLM protests to deal with. So on top of that, now we have stats
telling us, hey, like, you know, you guys are our next target.
And, you know, there was also this quote in Froster-Frau (2021)
article that says, “So Latinos become obscured or embraced within
the data because white passing Latinos will be marked as white or
unknown and Afro Latinos will be marked as black”. So what do you
have to say about that, Belle?
ANABEL: Yeah, I think, again, this brings back to the
notion that we have to assimilate and be white passing. And if
just because of the color of our skin, no matter how much we try
to assimilate, we are either labeled as black or just immigrants.
And so it’s just there’s just there’s no winning, really. And the
numbers that are saying it and what was what’s even harder to
really know about these number is how much is underreported. So
going back to the fact that some Latinos are being classified as
white and others as black, how many of those were actually
Latinos that were shot and killed that were not accounted for?
And so probably with that with that known, it’s a lot higher.
ANGELA: Definitely. And actually, Rubin (2012) wrote
an article about an LAPD officer, who was caught changing the
race of individuals who he stopped. So he was giving tickets and
he will make his reports. And on these reports, instead of
putting Latinos, he was identifying them as white. And when the
investigation happened and they look back, they found that he had
changed his reports, you know, and so and he was doing it because
he wanted to cover his tracks. So now we have officers who are
going into the streets and covering, you know, covering their
tracks like, yes, the bad apple theory says that, you know, only
there’s only a few in the bunch that actually do it. But I mean,
regardless, these are the people we trust now. We don’t know who
to trust because of what they’re doing. And that that one was
really like kind of perspective changing to me because, you know,
as as an explorer, former explorer, I would always I mean, I
would write tickets all the time. I once wrote 23 on the same
block, but I didn’t think you could easily just say, oh, this
person, you know, they’re not why they’re Latino. They’re like my
officer. I assure you, officer would always be right there
staring at me, making sure I’m not doing anything wrong. And so
that also kind of like looks back to Joseph, what he said about,
you know, you have officers who are seeing them and they’re not
doing anything about it. And that’s just as guilty as the people
who are committing these crimes. And I think that’s really
something to reflect on.
To continue on. Why don’t we take a look at a deputy sheriff’s
interview that I actually did. So he worked for Los Angeles
County. I’ll let him kind of give his background. But let’s just
take a listen to see what he has to say
DEPUTY: Brief background I started in law enforcement
in 1988. I was a police officer in the city of Compton. I worked
there for approximately 12 years, and during my time with Compton
Police, I worked patrol, I worked narcotics, and motors. Then, I
became a canine handler until 2000, when the police department
was disbanded and L.A. County Sheriffs took over, and then I
became a deputy sheriff. My time with the sheriff’s department, I
became a training officer, trained many new deputy sheriffs. And
then I took on the reserves. As a TO trained many reserves,
deputy sheriffs, and also became an explorer coordinator. Until
they retired just over a year ago.
In my own words, I would say racial profiling would be targeting
a person based on their looks or race and ethnicity. That’s
pretty much how I see racial profiling.
Unfortunately, it does exist in my opinion. And the reason why I
believe that it does exist is because some police officers stop
people based on what we just talked about, their looks or just
their race and only on that, nothing else out with no other
reasonable suspicion.
ANGELA: So you would say that you witnessed it then,
right, like first hand?
DEPUTY: I’ve probably witnessed it, I would say a
couple of times. I’ve heard comments made by other police
officers, such as, oh, look, there is an African-American, maybe
we should check them out. And there’s this opinion is based on
what decision was made is just based on his race and not anything
else. And when I say reasonable suspicion, there should be other
reasons other than just that like. There is a. Something that’s
based on specifics and articulate facts. It’s not just his race.
I’ll give you an example. Example in briefing. They tell us that
there’s a certain neighborhood where the majority of the people
that live in this neighborhood are Asian and there’s information
of a male Blacks in the area. And they’re breaking into homes and
you see a person, a Male Black, and he’s circling the area and it
doesn’t seem like he belongs in the area.
He appears to be lost or he’s just going in circles, which is an indication those possibly facing an area looking for a target, a house,
potentially looking for a victim to rob. And maybe then we need
more of a reason to stop him and to check this person, individual
out, to find out what they’re doing, what they’re looking for.
Some people may look at it as racial profiling. I don’t see it as
racial profiling. I see it as I’m going based on information that
I received a briefing that basically believe that this person is
somehow involved or is about to get involved in some kind of
criminal activity.
ANGELA: Would you say, again, if you feel comfortable
saying it, that you participated in racial profiling yourself?
DEPUTY: I have not. Personally, I have not. I go based
on more information, I don’t just go based on just the person’s
looks. But if I’m at a certain location and have already received
information of some previous criminal activity in this area, and
I see an individual and it doesn’t matter what race they are. And
this person is driving around the neighborhood and appears to be
a case in the area. As a police officer, I need to take action.
That’s part of my job and not look the other way and not do
anything about it. My background has influenced me. Again, I started working from working in a low income area where crime is much higher than other communities. I’ve learned to deal with different
individuals. Again, regardless of what race they are. These are
low income communities and I think that dealing with these people
in these areas, respect goes a long way. If you give respect, a
lot of times it diffuses a situation, a bad situation. It doesn’t
work all the time, but for me it has worked many times. So, yes,
I believe this has helped me, working in areas such as Compton,
starting in an area like that.
ANGELA: Do you think things would be different if
racial profiling didn’t exist, like would there be more crime,
less crime in the community?
DEPUTY: That’s hard for me to answer. As far as if it
will be different, I think there would be if it didn’t exist I
believe there would be a lot more respect for police officers. If
it didn’t exist. I’m not saying it does exist, but it’s hard for
me to answer something like that. All I can say is, there would
be a lot more respect for law enforcement if it didn’t exist.
ANGELA: I really enjoyed also this interview. I
enjoyed all of the interviews I did for the podcast, actually.
But something that I really liked about this interview was he was
really honest with me. I decided not to say his name, at least
during this podcast for the safety of everyone. But he told me he
didn’t want to hurt anybody feeling so. He also didn’t want to
sugarcoat it too much. So he told me the reality because the
reality is, yeah, there there are officers who do it, but there
is also some that, you know, you have to kind of see, especially
because I’m, you know, very pro-police. I was an explorer for a
long time. But I also have to see it from both perspectives
because I’m Latina.
But as someone who wore an Explorer uniform
and went right alongs, I know that during briefings they’re
telling you, look, for this person. And it was a very Asian
populated community. So, you know, even Latino stories like
literally would stand out like a sore thumb. And I think that’s
something that, you know, not everybody sees, especially in
public, because the reality is not the public isn’t always in
those briefing rooms with us. They’re not the ones that are
sitting down being told we need to catch this guy. He’s done this
many things already. He’s stolen this money because at the
station we were at, there was a lot of home burglaries, home
invasions and things like that. And at one point, there were so
many happening in one week that we already knew who the guy was.
We just could not find him. And, you know, things like that, like
how do you how do you tell the public, like, this is the
criminal. We have all this evidence without you know, I don’t
want to say hurting people’s feelings, but it’s true. Like,
that’s something we also have to think from their perspective.
Like at the end of the day, some of them are really just doing
their job. Others might not be, as we’ve already seen throughout
the all the evidence, but some of them like this deputy who he
really was just trying to do his job. And I think that also comes
with the uniform as well. The career itself is, you know, it’s a
risk. It’s a really big risk, both because the situations you put
in and obviously the public’s view.
ANABEL: Yeah, I know. And I’m I’m so glad you did this
interview. It’s so important to get to your point, you know, to
hear both sides. And so, you know, I think the deputy for taking
the time to kind of give his perspective. But, yeah, I’m glad he
was honest in the sense that he did observe other officers doing
racial profiling. And then although he didn’t admit he did it
himself, we have seen it in the case of George Floyd, where they
were standing by. They were just doing their job. But that kind
of brings me back to just like what you were saying about the
precinct and the briefings. And again, I, I by no means have any
experience in any of this. But, you know, as a as a citizen of
the public or whatever, to me that just sounds like is, you know,
maybe their maybe the system is outdated or maybe there needs to
be more data. At the end of the day, we all do better with more
information and data. And so what seems to be the problem is that
a lot of times, you know, these these profiles are very vague,
this is a black man about six feet and wearing a white shirt,
which maybe you can pinpoint this person. But where this deputy
was from in Compton, you know you can. You can. And that’s where
you get a lot of cases of mistaken identity and people who were
just walking like Trayvon Martin, you know, he was just walking
to the liquor store and he looked, “like a threat”.
And so what is very difficult about it is these these officers are doing
their job, but maybe they’re just not getting the right
information or the training has to change so that it doesn’t
escalate to a situation where they identify someone with the very
little information that they have and have in a very high threat
sort of environment. And then it leads to pulling out your gun
and unfortunately killing, you know, these these innocent people.
So it’s by no means is it an easy job to have and there’s not a
straightforward solution. But I think the the root of it all is,
you know, hearing from these officers, but also hearing their
perspective and how can we do better so so we don’t have cases
where we’re just going off of race and vague descriptions.
ANGELA: Definitely. And honestly, your entire comment.
It kind of brings me back to Poston and Chang (2019) article
“L.A.P.D. searches Blacks and Latinos more, but they’re less
likely to have Contraband than Whites”. One of the stories
touched my heart because I have an experience that I can kind of
connect to. So basically, there was this man, of course, who was
racially profiled, and he drove a BMW and within one month he was
stopped more than 10 times. And it’s crazy because this man,
Mangum, 37. He worked at a warehouse not so far from his home on
East ninety nine and South Main. He had a criminal record. He was
a juvenile man and things like that. Nothing huge, major. No, no
felony. Stuff like that. But he was regardless, his plates were
taken and he was pulled over. And, you know, it’s hard because he
was also Black. And, you know, a lot of the officers kind of
just, you know, it’s L.A. You see a Black man driving a really,
really nice car. What do you think officers think? Oh, he’s a
drug dealer. He’s a gang member. They things like, you know, the
stereotypes. And I think a lot of officers have some of them are
very guilty of that and others. But his story actually kind of
reminded me of an experience that I faced. And your comments
actually, as well, how you said there was so little information
but accusing them of such high crimes. So basically what happened
was I drove a Prius, a really, really red cherry red Prius. I
mean, in the middle of the night, you can see me from a mile
away. And I got it on my 16th birthday and two days after I got
it, my mom. So at this time, I was just starting I was fresh out
of the academy as an explorer.
And like I said, even though I went to Walnut, I grew up in a very low income community, super high crime. And my mom decided to drop me off because I was still in uniform. We didn’t want any issues because, you know, a cop in bad community is not what you want. But she dropped me off and so she was going to park the car and she told me, oh, take my purse.
It’s fine. Like, I’m literally not even going a block away. So she goes and not even a second later I get a call. And I already knew for some reason I like my phone was on silent that day, didn’t even vibrate. But for some reason I felt something was going to happen. And I remember looking at my phone and I answered my mom and asked, everything OK? And she said, no, your “friends” just stopped me. And I was like, What? And she’s like, bring my purse and go get my license, like now. And I’m in sandals, I’m shorts, I’m running out like I was freaking out. And
so I get there because of course they can say, oh well she was
driving without a license, you know, things like that. Well I get
there. And she had told them, like, my daughter’s an explorer.
And one of the deputies said, I don’t care if your daughter is an
F***ing explorer. That doesn’t mean shit, you know? And so she
said quiet. She was following all these rules. And I get there, I
give them a license. And one of the deputies asked me, he looks
me straight in the eye. And he was Latino. He was like, you know,
one of them was white and one of them was Latino. Latino looks at
me and he’s like, See, you’re the explorer. And I said, Yes, sir,
that’s me. And so he was like, OK, well, I’m just doing a routine
check because, you know, there’s a lot of burglaries around here
and, you know, cars get stolen. As we can see, your plates are
still paper. And I told him, yes, sir, you’re right. But we just
got this car two days ago. I have the receipt. It matches my
mom’s name and matches the registration matches her license,
matches the VIN. You know, we just got this two days ago, like
nothing. There’s we’re not breaking any laws. He’s like, oh,
well, I just have to make sure. And I said, OK, I understand.
You’re like, you know, I mean, he was just giving me a hard time
by this time especially. And my mom, like, she she’s learning
English. Obviously, she was raised in California, but she’s just
standing there because she was she was never really like she was
like, are you serious? Like I mean, when I got there, I’m trying,
to make this a better picture, like, but it was an SUV was one of
those like Ford Explorers that they have now. Both doors were
open, the lights were on, the spotlights were straight on the car
like it looked like were about to be a shoot out. To be honest, I
was scared for my mom’s life and my life. And so I remember they
were trying to open my trunk or something, but they were also
trying to check my plates just like under the plates and still
have the paper cover. They were trying to see if there was like
metal under. So I see this. The white officer took out his pocket
and like, it wasn’t even a small pocket knife. It was pretty big
when he opened it. I still remember it was like you guys can’t
see, but it was probably like four or five inches long, just the
blade itself around. And then it was the handle, of course. So he
pulls it out and he starts poking at the paper, the paper plate,
and he’s lifting it up and he scratches my red car. And I mean,
he scratches. Yeah. My new red car, OK? And I mean, to this day
outside, I still have that little like it’s probably like two,
three inches of just like white because he likes to grab the
entire paint off with his blade on my, my new car, you know, and
he like literally it was just like nothing. And I was just
watching him and I was like. Is this what they’re supposed to do
because, like I said, I was just fresh out of the academy, so I
didn’t really have, like, the knowledge that I know now, like I
could have made a complaint about that. I could have gotten I
could have asked for compensation for what they did to my car.
But I was so scared. And I think that’s what’s so important is
that, you know, when you’re in these situations, you probably
like Latinos don’t have that, that, oh, here, here. We have to do
this. It’s like you’re frozen because now it’s like, do I smart
or do I do I be smart about my life? And in that moment, I think
I was more scared about, like my mom and I getting in trouble.
Not to say that we had any reason to. But, you know, what do you
do when you have two deputies staring at you?
Now that I’ve had so many years as an explorer, I know that when
there’s two deputies, one of them is training. That means one of
them was a training officer and one of them, was just fresh out
of the county jails and academy. That’s how I know that, that
that’s why they were being the way they were, because one was
inexperienced and the other one was probably just trying to show
off like, oh, you want to see what we do around here? And that’s
like a police personality that a lot of officers like develop in
the streets. They it’s this personality that they have to act
tough against crime or show their purpose on the streets. And I
learned that actually last semester in a policing class, but it
kind of gave me more insight on what was going on in that in that
scenario. But now that I’m older, I wish I could go back. And
obviously it’s too late. But to go back in time and say, like,
oh, I need to talk to a supervisor, because you just ruined my
car that I just got two days ago, not one, but two days ago, you
know, and like, what’s crazy is that I still have that mark, as I
said before, my car. And people ask me, oh, tell me what
happened? Because, you know, it’s such in a weird area. It’s not
somewhere that you would just like. It’s literally like where the
handle is to open the car. You just see this white streak and
you’re like, what? Yeah, like I said, my car is red. You could
tell. And there’s things like that that just kind of they put
they put me a better perspective to understand that, you know,
sometimes people are just put in a position where they have to
think, do I want to fight back? I just want to go home to my
family? And I think and in the same way, it’s hard because some
of these police officers go out and say, do I want to do I want
to die or do I want to go home to my family? And what’s the first
thing they’re trained to do? Stop the threat. So it’s it’s really
hard from both perspectives. But I feel like also adding on to
what the officer said we have to we have to learn how to respect
each other, because if there was less racial profiling, there
would be more respect for officers.
ANABEL: Exactly. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
And you know what? Like the fact that you can recall so vividly
really says a lot to that experience is that it was traumatic.
And it is so frustrating for you that you have to see that
scratch in your car, which which should have been, you know, when
you were 16, you got a new car. I’m sure your mom worked so hard
to get you that car. And the fact that it’s all sort of… There’s
a black cloud over this experience because of, you know, racial
profiling, because I don’t know I don’t know the circumstances
and what happened. But your mom was obviously acting normal and
picking up her daughter from school. And if anything, she was
actually trying to be more careful by taking the car, waiting for
you. And then it turned into this really awful experience. I can
still recall very vividly, and I’m sure that was a very difficult
experience for her. So it speaks to the I’m sure all the
listeners can have countless stories, whether it’s your mom or
your brother or your partner of times, where a very innocent
moment riding your brand new car or going to pick up your
daughter from school turns into a life or death situation.
ANGELA: Definitely. So, I mean, after all of this, you
know, analyzing, I think we have to kind of take this back to our
main question. Should Latinos remain worried around law
enforcement even when they are not breaking the law? What do you
have to say?
ANABEL: When when you read that front to me? You know,
just of course, it’s an outstanding. Yes. You know, to this day,
I am scared. As I mentioned, even though I grew up an immigrant,
most of my life, an undocumented immigrant. And I it wasn’t until
I was twenty four years old that I could actually change my
status. Most of my life, I lived as an undocumented immigrant.
And even though I have a green card today, by default, I still go
back to that fear of law enforcement and police officers and a
lot of frustration because I have a lot of stories, you know, of
family members and friends that have been in situations like
this.
So to put it more into perspective of just Latinos specifically
here in Los Angeles, there is a very high immigrant community and
undocumented immigrants. So by definition, undocumented means
unlawful. And what some People I were I’m hoping we move away
from the term of “illegal”, but at the end of the day, that
obviously by definition defines you as wrong and unlawful. And so
by our very existence of just coming to this country and trying
to pursue the American Dream through the narrative and media and
through the the label of being unlawful, we are breaking the law
just by existing. Even if someone like me and my family has done
everything in their power to assimilate. I obviously speak
English, you know, all the time. And I went to college. I, as
they say, fixed my papers. And although I’m technically not still
a citizen, I’ve done everything right and I have achieved that
American Dream and I continue to do so. And as proud as I am, if
you see me driving and I see a police officer, my palms are
sweaty and my heart is racing. And if they slow down, I’m about
to have a panic attack. I mean, you cannot erase the years and
years of trauma and you cannot erase the history of policing in
this country. And so, absolutely, you know, I really wish that I
could say no to this question. But I think coming from an
immigrant experience and some stories in my family,
unfortunately, yeah. Latinos do remain worried about law
enforcement.
ANGELA: I definitely understand your experience. I
mean, I do have family that’s still living as undocumented in the
country, so I know how it feels to even apply for a license. I
mean, you think, OK, maybe they’re not trying to trap me and we
should help the community by getting a license. So when I’m
stopped, they have one. But, you know, you’re always going to
have that doubt. Like, what if what if? And again, as I mentioned
earlier, I’m very pro-police. So seeing both perspectives and
also being a Latina myself kind of puts me in that that middle
like are you are you supporting your race or are you supporting
police? What’s it going to be? And I hate that it has to come to
that, but it shouldn’t. You know, it really it should be about
how can we merge this together? What are some implications that
we can do what our programs are? Because are are putting police
officers on high school campuses actually doing a difference? are
having more protests and attacking with violence, doing a
difference? What are what are things that we can do better? I
mean, personally, I loved being an explorer. I mean, a lot of
what who I am today comes from that experience. And I definitely
think that Explorers should be reaching out to low income
community kids, because at the end of the day, like, I had a good
heart.
Yeah, I live in a very bad neighborhood, but I had dreams
and I feel like a lot of the times we don’t get access to those
dreams the same way other communities do. So I definitely think
there should be programs implemented like the explorers or maybe
just having a coffee with a cop. Hey, these are these are my
concerns. What are you guys doing better to hear me out? How are
you guys keeping me safe? How do I know that I can trust you? And
I know actually Los Angeles County sheriff actually does like
coffee or breakfast with a cop. I know. I forget I think
Lancaster did it one year, but things like that, like even if
it’s a small little cookie, like, I think it’s very important to
have that connection between both sides because especially the
officers who are Latinos and like in my story, where the Latino
deputy was telling me, I don’t care who you are, like, you know,
he had that superiority. He was also male, which I think is a
different issue. But I mean, there’s also that, like going
against each other, going against each other’s race. And as we
mentioned before, earlier we talked about Arellano (2021) black
white paradigm. We talked about the statistics of what’s going
on. And we found all this evidence that, you know, even me, I, I
really believe that we should be worried even in the presence of
police. And I think that even not being a Latino, you should be
worried.
I feel like a lot of officers are starting to develop this
personality where you have to show why you’re here. And I think
that has to do a lot with our perception of them. We’re scared of
them more than others. They’re going to help us. So I think
personally, like when I look at the question, should we remain
worried for me, like reflecting back on that experience with my
car, hearing your like your experiences, thinking about my
family, who still going through them? Yeah, I would be scared.
I’m still scared. And yeah, like I said, I wore the uniform at
one point. But just like you, as soon as I see a cop on the
freeway, I’m like sweating like I see them come up to me, oh my
God, it’s the worst. And why am I so scared? I mean, if I do
something wrong, then, OK, I’m going to get a ticket at the
worst. But why is it that internally I feel like I might get
shot? Why is it that I see these two officers and I think, please
don’t take my mom to jail like she bought this car working so
hard? Like, why is it that we have to question whether they’re
here to help us or not? So I mean, after everything, especially
Joseph’s perception as he was incarcerated, he even talked about
how, like even in the jails or before everything was going on.
Racial profiling is, was, and will continue to happen in the
future. And I think that’s something very important that we
should start attending to.
ANABEL: Yeah, and just to put it all in perspective,
it’s what’s important is these conversations. It’s important for
us to read our history, not forget our history so that we don’t
repeat it. And so articles like these are so important.
Conversations between family and friends are so important. And to
continue to have this conversation across the line within our
friends and families, but also those people who really do want to
go into law enforcement for the reasons that you’ve said that you
had these dreams of giving back to your community and being part
of the community. And why can’t we dream of a place where there
are variations of law enforcement, where we are budgeting and
investing in mental health resources and community programs? Here
in Los Angeles, there’s a lot of advocates and resources for low
income and immigrant communities. I would like to learn more on
how law enforcement is helping these communities.
ANGELA: Definitely. You know, I think we’ve covered a
lot today and I really had a lot of fun doing this. First off, I
want to thank you, though. Thank you so much for partnering up
with me. Latinas Rebeldes wouldn’t be a thing without you. But
thank you so much for listening. In our next episode, we will be
speaking with Janet Herrera Bucio, a regional organizer with
CHIRLA, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights, and the work
they are doing here in Los Angeles and across the nation for
immigrant rights. We’ll see you Rebeldes next time!
**end of podcast**
